Change is an essential aspect of managing a public safety agency. In order to remain both resilient and agile, agencies require the kind of transformational change that allows them not only to react to events but also to be proactive in addressing their root causes. In 2019, there is no bigger transformational change than moving your public safety systems to the cloud. In this Public Safety Now podcast, Rachelle Garrett, director of business development for government solutions for Microsoft, discusses the key questions agencies must answer before making this crucial shift, including: “Are we ready to change?”
JW: Hi, and thanks for tuning in to Public Safety Now on Hexagon Radio. I’m your host, John Whitehead, Vice President of Sales for U.S. Public Safety at Hexagon’s Safety and Infrastructure Division. A lot of conversations have been going around about the Cloud, and we are going to have a great conversation today, and really just talk about that topic.
How does public safety prepare for the Cloud? What are some thoughts to consider? And really, where have we been and where are we going? I’ve got an awesome guest here with me from Microsoft. This is Rachelle Garrett. She’s with the Public Safety & Justice division. Rachelle, welcome and thank you for joining us today.
RG: Thank you for having me.
JW: It’s such a great topic, talking about the Cloud. It’s an exciting time. I just can’t imagine some of the opportunities and some of the doors that this is going to open for public safety. These are the things that we’re going to talk about here in the next little bit – how much more secure it is and some of the options public safety agencies have. But before we kind of get into that, I’d like to hear a little bit more about you. How did you get involved with the Cloud at Microsoft, in the position that you’re in?
RG: Yeah, so, it’s a long and awesome story. While at my previous employer, I had the opportunity to work with solutions that were being used by law enforcement. When I came over to Microsoft—and I came over specifically because of all the work they were doing with Azure and the Cloud—it was important to me to stay focused on the mission. And so, as part of my role working with solution providers and ISVs who deliver solutions to law enforcement, I skipped the course and have been privileged enough to continue to work with folks like yourself.
JW: Nice, nice. Very cool. Has Cloud been the key focus throughout your career, or just your time here in the last little bit?
RG: So, Cloud has been more recent, just given the fact that from a public safety perspective, they lag a little bit behind in terms of adoption of the Cloud compared to more of commercial enterprises. So, while we have been seeing an upward trend of it, it is certainly on the newer end than compared to something like financial services. So, a lot of my background in working with public safety in the past has been all about having a solution on-premise. That is changing.
JW: Right, right. As most of the people listening to this know, my background comes from public safety. At the comm center we were at, back in the mid ‘90s, we had the huge servers in the back room, and you had to make sure that you had the… yeah… just everything had to be set up around those big servers – everything from fire suppression to correct temperature within that room, and all of the work that our IT department would put in just keeping those things going. And then that information would push out to the actual clients sitting at each one of the workstations, and as a 911 dispatcher and a 911 supervisor, you’d sit there, and your lifelines were these network wires going back to that storage area back in the back. I remember back then thinking a little bit about… again, we’d have to rewire things. We’d have to make sure that all of that infrastructure was constantly working, and the work and the time that our IT put into it.
Around that same time, and I don’t know exactly when all that was going off, this is still when, if you had a deposit, let’s say, that you wanted to take to the bank, it was old school. You got in your car, you drove down there, you filled out the little slip, you handed it to the lady and off she went back to her PC that was connected back there in the back room. And somewhere along the line, public safety has remained the same in most part. They still have their IT center set up. They still have that hardwire infrastructure. But to your point, the private sector’s gone on and said, no, we’re going to adopt the Cloud, and we’re going to take it.
So now, if I want to do that same deposit, let’s say, at the bank, I take a picture of it, I snap it across my phone, I send it over there, and magically it happens. It’s amazing how quickly that environment has happened in the private sector, and now we’re starting to see that in the public sector. So, with that kind of background, tell me what do you think public safety is thinking right now regarding the Cloud? How are you seeing adoption rates and where it’s going?
RG: Absolutely. I will say adoption rates are going up. So that’s the short answer to your question. Let me talk a little bit about why that is the case. The first example goes back to what you were referencing from the bank and how people are interacting with their financial institution. Everybody’s connected now. There is a need and a desire to interact with citizens in the communities in a way which they’re used to interacting in the rest of their lives. Law enforcement understands that, right? They get it. They’re in community-based policing. They want to be closer to the folks that they’re there to serve, to protect. So, they know they need to do things more akin to how the citizens do stuff in their day-to-day lives, and that is often through applications on the Cloud.
The other piece, which you also referenced, is about all the resources it takes to support the infrastructure. It’s not just the resources, but it’s also the cost and it’s also the risks associated with it, because it’s often just housed maybe in a basement, and God forbid there is an act of nature and something happens, and there goes everything. There’s the need to relate more to the community and engage the way, and where, and how, and when they want to engage… as well as understanding the backend sid, you know, is this sustainable, is this scalable, is this resilient, and is this really the best way for us to be able to innovate –knowing that we need to do more with less, or law enforcement needs to do more with less.
JW: You’re absolutely right. You hit on a topic that we’ve touched on here in this series over the last year, and that is doing more with less. It is amazing that, as technology comes into play, as some of these things I’ll say add additional costs, it also removes costs in other areas. And the nice part about that is, I’ll tell you, how many agencies, and even still today, the time, the effort, and the money that we’re putting in to have redundancy within our own internal infrastructures is a huge cost. I mean, it’s having that backup center, it’s having that tertiary database, it’s having all of the networks within it to kind of give me a backup to the backup, if you will. And the nice part about that is connecting into the Cloud, you have that within that Azure environment, you have that peace of mind.
I was going to ask you some other areas… So that, in my mind, is probably one of the most important things. You touched on the risk aspect, right? If you have that act of nature and you have a flooding or a fire or something happens to your center, the loss can be devastating if it’s onsite, and you don’t have that within the Cloud. Are there any other kind of important aspects that agencies should think about when they’re looking at the Cloud, and any benefits there?
RG: Yeah, absolutely. We touched on a few but let me talk about a couple of others. I’d love to get your thoughts in terms of what you’re seeing as well. Innovation, right? Imagine being able to stand up or develop a new application for something that’s going to help your first responders more quickly get to where they need to go and do it on the fly, instead of having to go out and go through a procurement process to get a new server or a new VMs or whatever it may be. So, the ability to develop and test on the fly, huge. The other thing is of course the data, right? We work in a world of silos, as much as we constantly talk about trying to get out of the silos, and law enforcement’s not different. There’s a lot of information that comes in from other agencies that impacts public safety, such as transportation, if there’s the roadwork going on, health and human services in terms of where there could be some sort of epidemic going on, and things like that. And that all impacts where you would want to have first responders go.
When you think about the Cloud and the ability to take the data from different sources, from different agencies or across even a single agency where you might have different data feeds coming in to bring it together to get a holistic view of your community. To be able to figure out — okay, what could we be doing better? Where and how and why?
JW: Interesting, because that’s you know what? As you were talking a little bit about that, my mind was going, I thought you were going to go down another road, I guess. And when you started talking, where I started thinking is, what we call in public safety, more of a regionalisation approach. It’s that data sharing model. It’s the ease of being able to take all of these disparate systems and put them together. I think that’s your point, that if you’ve got them sitting in a silo and I have my servers over at the PD and I have some servers over at the fire department and then I’ve got public health and I’ve got transportation and all these agencies have these systems set up, data sharing becomes not impossible but a little more difficult; whereas, if you have them all in an Azure, in a Cloud environment, you alleviate at least that one pain point, is what it sounds like.
RG: Absolutely. At Microsoft we understand that not every organisation is ready to go full Cloud. We understand there’s always going to be a mix. There’ll always be a mix. It could be a hybrid, right? It could be some on-prem, it could be some that’s all… You might mention it’s all on the Cloud, but it gives you that ability to maneuver the data and to get the best value across the agency, across the committee, and then even across states. Criminals don’t care about jurisdiction lines and counties and city lines. They just do what they need to do, where they need to do it or want to do it. The idea of being able to share a data regardless of where it’s coming from could be a huge accelerator in terms of being able to find insights.
JW: I completely agree. And you brought up a couple of areas there, the hybrid approach. One of the things is I go out and I talk to police chiefs and executives in public safety across the U.S. is there’s this weird notion that they’re being forced to the Cloud. Whether I like it or not, I have to go to the Cloud. And I kind of stop them and ask, tell me a little bit more about that. It always comes back, well, you vendors—which I love. The answer to my question is normally, well, you vendors are saying here’s my application, it’s Cloud ready, and we’re going to put you in the Cloud. And I say, yeah, but what if I don’t want to go to the Cloud? Well, no, I’m sorry, my application only runs in the Cloud. And they’re like, Oh, so you’re forcing me to go to the Cloud if I take your application.
And one of the things I know that Hexagon has done is state kind of what you were talking about is I don’t want to go in there and force anyone to go to the Cloud until they’re ready. Agencies need to decide how they want to do that. For example, we’re offering systems to where maybe the CAD data is sitting on-prem because that’s the comfort level of the agency. I still want to have that environment sitting there on-prem, but I want to put my police records up in the Cloud. I want to have tertiary database or backups up there in the Cloud and have some of my backup data there.
And all of those different environments are the things that I go out and like to talk to people about and say, you know what, you do have that option. No one should force you to go to the Cloud until you’re ready. And then, oh by the way, when you are ready, you should be able to take that infrastructure that you have sitting there and move that to Cloud whenever you’re ready. And that’s one of the things that we at Hexagon have really been out there talking about is that there are options in this world, and you don’t have to be forced to go there.
RG: I think you bring up the really good point that underlies everything here, which is culture. If you force something and people aren’t ready for it and the cultures aren’t ready, then it’s not going to go the way you want it to go. I think there’s, in addition to the organisation itself identifying the need—and we’ll get to that, I know we talk about how you prepare—the culture has to be prepared. The people who work there have to be prepared. And it’s not just the people who are going to be touching the systems but people who are supporting those systems, maybe other agencies that are going to be accessing those systems. That’s a really critical element for success of doing anything, regardless whether it’s Cloud or bringing in a new application.
But you touched upon it in terms of no one likes to be forced to do anything. And that’s why I think having that understanding and then sticking behind and saying, yes, we’re going to support you either way you need it or any way you need it, that will resonate with our law enforcement customers who, as we talked about earlier, are still taking a slower approach to moving towards the Cloud and some of the other businesses that we may work with.
JW: I agree. I think you and I are both saying the same thing. There’s not a right or wrong answer here. That’s okay. If you want to take that step and you want to put some of your infrastructure into the Cloud and then later take everything to the Cloud, that is absolutely okay. And that’s kind of the message that I have as I’m out talking is, you don’t even need to feel bad about that. You should have that right, and you do have that ability to do that. No one should force you over there to the Cloud.
It’s interesting, and we’ll kind of shift gears here a little bit, but if you do some quick research online, and you said, what’s the resistance to moving to the Cloud? Tell me the good and the bad of moving to the Cloud. The biggest thing that comes up is security. And we know that in public safety, we’ve had discussions on here about cybersecurity, and we know that that is on the minds of public safety agencies today. The number of public safety agencies that have been hacked, hit with malware, or what I would just say, attacked by cyber security crimes continues to be on the rise. Agencies are concerned with the security of putting CAD data, records management, CJIS sensitive data up into the Cloud. Can you talk a little bit and help us overcome those fears and some things there that people can take there?
RG: Think about where your data sits today and how it’s being protected and the resources it takes to constantly keep it up-to-date. Now think about that at scale and think about the resources that Microsoft brings to bear from a cybersecurity perspective, right? We’re completely taking a proactive approach to security, compliance, and privacy – leading the industry and establishing and meeting best practices. Then you might then say, well, there’s the cyber piece, but then there’s the CJIS piece, right? That’s something that we’ve been a driver on.
So, we have proactively reached out and worked with the state to get the CJIS security addendum signed. We have over 36 states signed now, which is great, which represents over 80% of the sworn officers in the country. There’s the cyber side, but then there’s, who’s touching your data in the data center side, because as we all know, the threats can also come from the inside as well as the outside. So, you combine the cyber perspective from what we do as Microsoft overall as a company, and we have the best practices that we see across every industry, and we’re constantly monitoring that. And then we have the law enforcement specific piece from CJIS.
JW: You know what? I’ve talked to a lot of people in this regard, especially some IT professionals, and I know there are agencies out there, and they have phenomenal IT staff. And the IT directors themselves—so this isn’t just my opinion—but the IT directors themselves are saying, as great as my staff is, I cannot measure up to the level that Microsoft is going to bring to be able to protect the data that’s on those servers. So, it’s interesting, right? And again, that’s not a slam to any one agency or any one IT group. They’re doing great things, and they’re keeping the lights on in a lot of agencies across the country. But when it comes to security, how much more secure can my data get than to be in a data center run by people that that’s what they do, and to your point, that are CJIS certified and are able to maintain that data and the control of that data?
RG: Right. Just for some perspective, 3,500 Microsoft security professionals using AI analyse 6.5 trillion global signals to detect and respond to threats.
JW: Those are daunting numbers, right? No agency can come in with those types of numbers. And, listen, at the end of the day, nothing is 100% guaranteed. As soon as you say that, there’s going to be someone out there that says: we must attack that, we must crack that. I think that you have to look at it at risk and gains and look at the benefits of having that data protected and sitting there up in the Cloud and where that’s at.
The other area that I hear is performance and uptime. I think that there—and again, I’m going to speak on just my own interpretation of conversations that I have—but I think that there is an easier time for public safety to say, you know what, my records data can definitely go up in the Cloud. I see that. Yeah. You know, that’s great. We can store that data. As video and evidence, pictures, soundbites, recordings, all of that starts coming into play, it makes sense. No one wants to keep buying hard drive after hard drive or storage to store the immense amount of data that we’re going to be, if we’re not already, storing for evidential data. It makes sense for records.
The area that I get a lot of head scratching is, man, what about CAD? That’s more mission critical. That’s more right now. Grandma calls and grandma needs help. I can’t worry about, how’s my connection, or is the Cloud working in giving me that response that I need so that there’s no delays? What are some things as far as performance and uptime that we could talk about a little bit to kind of alleviate that fear?
RG: I’ll touch on that a little bit, and I have some peers that could go much deeper if you ever want to do a follow-on podcast, but so part of it is in the planning process, right? You have to understand what systems you have in a Cloud and then how you’re going to protect them and have that redundancy. One of the things we can do, or we’ve we talked to our customer about, is geo replication between data centers, right? So, we have our government data centers, they’re several hundred miles apart, and that helps us support that continuity. Something happens to one, you can go to the other. You can pick and choose which data you want to back up, so depending on what system is, where does it fit and how do you want to have that backup and how available do you need that backup to be. You think about high availability.
And then you can even think about in hybrid, there’s certainly ways to have it in hybrid or if you’re thinking about a website, there’s kind of a traffic manager kind of thing, routing, depending on what’s going on with the citizens or people trying to access that website. Lots of different options. It really becomes down to the use cases and who has access and then prioritizing. So, it really starts to get … one of the early parts of moving into Cloud, which is we do, is planning.
JW: I agree. It’s interesting because some of the IT directors that I’ll talk to, they’ll say something like, yeah, but it’s only as good as my connection to the Internet. It’s just like your client right now is only as good as your connection to your server. I get that. I understand. And then there is some backhoe operator named Joe that’s getting a lot of grief. I know everywhere I go, someone’s blaming a backhoe operator, but that’s the guy. They’re like, hey, listen, Joe’s on the backhoe, and he cuts my line, and what’s going to happen? My response has been, well, let’s think about that. And I don’t know if I have an exact answer, but let’s think about that for a minute. Because right now, let’s pretend that Joe on the backhoe does that exact same thing and he cuts other—whether that’s electric or other types of service or to your point, there’s some natural disaster that happens—we’re not going to alleviate the fact that things happen. But you know what? In public safety, what we do is we plan for those and we preplan, and we figure out what does happen when Joe in the backhoe messes us up. A few of the areas that I’ve seen, and I’d love to get your thoughts, are is of course redundancy, right? I’ve got fiber maybe coming in from the north, fiber coming in from the south. I’ve had agencies that have told me that, right? To where there’s never just one way in and one way out. They’ve got a couple of different areas there. But the other thing, and I think that this is the beauty of the Cloud, is that I don’t have to rely on just that one way of connecting.
I’ve talked to agencies that have told me and chiefs that have told me, we’re ready for this. I’ve got one laptop sitting there on the shelf for every dispatch position, for example. And in the event something happens, and whether that’s an Internet down or a natural disaster, my dispatchers can on their way out the front door, grab that laptop and go right out to the command vehicles sitting in the parking lot, open them up, and connect to the Cloud through the cellular connection and be right back online. That’s a very interesting way of looking at this is that there are so many ways of connecting. Is that really something that we should fear? I mean, yeah, it is something that’s cause for concern, but is it something that we could fear? Have you heard anything like that, any other types of responses to that? What happens if my connection goes down?
RG: No, but I’ve heard it more from the sense of not if my connection goes down butmore from an opportunistic perspective, right? How do I get more people using this so I can get more insight? I can actually take some of the people who maybe were doing things that we could now automate maybe using AI and having them focus on our mission critical tasks, and how can I use it for that? Understanding, once again, getting back to your point, I can go out in the parking lot and use the vehicle. Think about all the sensors that are out there. And with 5G coming out, everybody’s connected. You’re going to want to pull in data, right? In law enforcement, we’re starting to pull up data. You’re pulling this from cameras, from body-worn or fleet or others, but you have the cameras that are on streetlights and other things. So, the idea of being concerned about the Cloud, the reality is the Cloud is where your data’s been coming in from.
JW: That’s right. Okay, I see. So, to your point, what good is the system if it’s not getting any of the input as well? So, as telephony starts moving into that direction and now things are coming across your data network as incoming videos and those types of things, the Internet of Things, all of those sensors and all of that starts coming in, it’s an interesting perspective, right? Basically, what we’re saying here is, no, that’s absolutely something to consider. But guess what? Nothing is going to work if that goes down, and you’re not going to have any data coming in if that goes down. It’s definitely a great conversation and an interesting topic, but it seems that IT people are very, very smart, and they are working this out because, again, as we stated at the beginning, I don’t think this is, if it happens, it’s when it happens for all of these agencies, because that’s really where we’re going to be able to go. And I don’t see agencies, and I won’t even begin to tell you how many years it’s going to take. I don’t see any agency making the argument that we need to keep it at our center because that’s the best way and the most secure way. I think that’s going to be a tough argument to go.
So, with that in mind, what are some areas and maybe some steps that agencies can do to kind of prepare for that move, whenever that is? What are some things that we can start doing as public safety agencies to start preparing for that move?
RG: That’s a great question. I think the first thing you should always start with is start communicating that you want to talk about it, right? Communication. Start building a sense of here’s where I’d like to go, here’s where we should go, here’s why. Without that you get that culture of discussion we have before in terms of making sure everybody’s on board, and then how it could potentially impact your move to the Cloud. Whatever phase it may be in, right? Because you don’t have to do everything all out, right? It can be a phased approach. Could be certain workloads. It depends. So, the first thing to do is really start to have those discussions. And as part of that, use it to define your strategy, right? What is the justification and what are the outcomes you’re looking for as part of that move to the Cloud? Whether it’s like a migration or its new innovation or a combination. So, step one is define the strategy.
After you have that strategy, build out a plan, right? What is that adoption plan, and how are you going to achieve the outcomes? What workloads, what applications, what data, what sources, and so on, are going to be part of that? Then prioritise them based on… you could do it in a couple of ways, right? Is it impact, is it cost, is it a combination, or is there something else? It all comes back down to what your strategy is.
The next piece, I would say, is getting ready, and that gets a little bit to culture and also talks about skills. What skills do you need to have in house, if any, to support that? Certainly, a lot of vendors today that law enforcement uses have their solutions on the Cloud. What is it you need as an agency to have on your side?
And then I would say governance. What are your governance priorities? How do you identify and monitor the risks? How do you benchmark all of that against where you started with your strategy and your outcomes? Those are the things I would suggest any organisation start with in terms of making any digital transformation moves.
JW: The nice part about what you’re saying, every step that you’re going through – I’m sitting here going, well, this is no different than what they do to preplan for a large scale disaster or to preplan for a new software purchase, to preplan for a new building that they may be putting up. What I like about what you’re saying is it really comes down to what we do in public safety and just pre-planning for this event. It’s all about that change management, and then it’s all about how we manage that change. And it sounds like that works here with the Cloud, just like everywhere else.
JW: Do you think agencies are ready for this step? You think public safety is ready for this step?
RG: I do. We’re definitely seeing deeper increase in the number of conversations we’re having with agencies, not just in the U.S. but across the globe, in terms of what they could do in the Cloud. Sometimes they’re already in the Cloud and don’t think of it as necessarily being in the Cloud because they say they’re using an application that’s hosted in the Cloud. There are others who have private Clouds, right? They’re already starting to do some development there. Absolutely seeing it, and I think it’s something you touched upon before, because they’re trying to figure out how to do more with less and how to help those who are in the position that they’re in do more, more quickly.
So, resources are slim, data is plentiful. If I can actually help make the teams I have more productive, increase the insights that they have, help make a decision in terms of where I should be having resources go out in the field and the community to protect the citizens, to protect law enforcement, then we may be able to get a handle on this. And I think this from all these duscussions we have, there is a keen interest to go to the Cloud to be able to take advantage of the resources that are in the Cloud, not only from the scaling and security and development perspective, but also from some of the newer technologies like Internet of Things, like AI, like machine learning, cognitive services. There’s value in there that is going to really help the resources scale in terms of developing and generating outcomes than what they could do today without being on the Cloud, without being on Azure.
JW: I think that from what I’m hearing you say that agencies are probably more ready than they even realise. I mean, that’s really what it comes down to. I think as I talked to some of the agencies out there, again, we’re all human creatures, right? And it’s that fear of the unknown for a lot of people. I think that when they really look at probably what they have in house and the preparedness level and what they’re trying to accomplish, I think more agencies may be ready than they even realised. So, it’s an interesting, interesting thing here.
So is there anything… let’s… Public safety’s a big market. Is there anything Microsoft is thinking about or any concerns on the Microsoft side? What happens if you wake up tomorrow and, all of a sudden, every agency wants to move over? Is Microsoft ready for that?
RG: Absolutely, absolutely. We know every agency’s different, and every agency’s going to move at a different speed and want to work on different workloads. And this is where us combined with partners like yourselves, we have those discussions. The one thing I will say is we always want to make sure everything we’re doing, directly with the agencies themselves or with partners such as you and Hexagon, is make sure everything we’re doing falls into what we consider like ethical AI, for example, transparency and fairness and security and privacy. We want to make sure that we’re doing things that aren’t doing anything to violate the trust that we, and the departments, have with the communities.
JW: Nice. Very cool. So, let’s talk a little bit about future. I’m not trying to put you on the spot, Rachelle, but maybe this is just your opinion. But I think everybody knows what the Cloud is, right, to your point and what we’ve talked about here over the last few minutes, everybody, I guarantee everybody’s using something in the Cloud, whether they know it or not. Something of theirs is in the Cloud or some product on their phone if they’re…everyone’s touching the Cloud. Where do you think the Cloud’s going to change? What is this word going to mean five years from now or maybe 10 years from now? Anyfuture that you can see in this?
RG: I think it’s almost going to become where the Cloud isn’t called out as the Cloud anymore because it just, it is. It is just the normal way of business versus calling out on the Cloud or on-prem. There’s still going to be those instances where things are going to be on-prem, but it’s just going to be understood it’s on the Cloud, and you don’t have to call that out. Today, there was a report that came out from a digital government survey that four in 10 government agencies use hybrid with 37% who have a workload in the Cloud. We know that budgets today are going to be growing for the Cloud. I think Gartner says 17% a year over year through 2021. My guess is I would expect that we’ll probably see up to 75% of, let’s say, public safety agencies using the Cloud in one form or another. And that’s going to look different for each, but I think in five years we could hit that 75% mark.
JW: Those are mind-boggling statistics. But right at the beginning you kind of said that, that we’re not going to even be thinking Cloud down the road because, let’s go back to my banking example. I don’t think about my Cloud. I don’t think about my bank being Cloud-hosted data. It’s my bank, right?
JW: It’s just like you take that word out of vocabulary whenever it becomes kind of just second nature. So, to your point, public safety data, we’re not going to say public safety in the Cloud data. We’re not going to say public safety on-prem data. It’s going to be public safety data. Your prediction, 75%, I’ll go with that. That sounds like a great number to me. If that’s the case, there’s going to be agencies that when I say data, there will be a time where it is going to be the norm. And I don’t want to say odd that’s got a negative connotation, but the random agency having data onsite will be kind of a discussion of, seriously, you really still have your stuff onsite? It’s going to just become the norm. Again, just like rest of the world kind of has moved into that world.
Rachelle, I just want to say thank you very much. This has been an interesting topic. Again, just talking about the Cloud, how public safety can prepare for the Cloud. I think there’s some really good information that you shared with us. Again, thank you. To hear additional episodes or to learn more, visit us at hxgnspotlight.com, and thanks for tuning in.